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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4177
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 12:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
We are mercenaries, yet acquiring skill points is vastly more important than acquiring money. SP is vital in this game because almost every item requires SP to use, and it accrues so slowly that it makes the game into a grindfest; this is why people AFK farm. The current SP system encourages us to play as a form of work when we should be playing because we enjoy the game, or because of the metagame. The SP system also creates massive gear differences between the new players and veterans which leads to them getting stomped as soon as they graduate from the instant battle academy, and this is a serious issue for Dust's retention of new players.
The solution is not to go to a fully passive SP system like EVE because although it would end the SP grind, it will also create an insurmountable gap between the newbs and veterans. The solution is not just simply give players more SP from battles because the game would lead to players quickly unlocking everything like a CoD game, which would be bad for longevity. The solution is not to remove the SP system, because it adds depth to the game and character building.
What is the solution? I found this thread in the feedback/requests section by Vyzion Eyri that suggests this: Items should no longer have skill requirements to use them.
Since skills would no longer unlock items, they should instead ALL provide bonuses for items to improve efficacy. No more useless skills.
All skills start out with a 2x multiplier, but the more SP you spend, the more SP cost multiplier increases. After spending 5 million SP the multipliers become 3x, and after 10 million it becomes 4x.
large cost increases from one tier to the next, making using prototype gear extremely expensive and risky to use in a public battles.
If you're going to say that this deviates too far from EVE, then you should know that Dust wasn't even suppose to have EVE's skill system. In 2009 the plan was to use an achievement matrix where in-game achievements gives you the ability to use items. Click here and read and here.
Dust is largely about risk, each time you spawn in battle with a fitting, you're risking losing it. Skill requirements for items essentially prevents us from being able to risk an item, and only holds back the true risk vs rewards nature of the game; if someone wants to risk losing an insanely expensive dropsuit fitting or tank, then they should be allowed to without needless restrictions.
Some of you (and CCP) may be thinking that the lack of skill requirements for items would make many no-requirements AUR items obsolete, and end up providing CCP with less money. A solution would be to sell standard BPOs instead for almost every single items. Also sell guns with all sorts of colors and skins.
I'm posting this here because I believe this system is best for the game, and it will help with retention of new players. The grindfest aspect of the game is one of the flaws that led to so many bad reviews. This system does not eliminate progression; SP will still be very important to augment one's character and provide advantages, but it just won't be necessary for the use of items. This makes the SP grind very optional so players don't feel forced to grind just to get an item they want.
This thread is not a request, but a means of getting a request the attention i feel it deserves, and to have a discussion about; general discussion gets more attention. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4177
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 12:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
calisk galern wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:We are mercenaries, yet acquiring skill points is vastly more important than acquiring money. SP is vital in this game because almost every item requires SP to use, and it accrues so slowly that it makes the game into a grindfest; this is why people AFK farm. The current SP system encourages us to play as a form of work when we should be playing because we enjoy the game, or because of the metagame. The SP system also creates massive gear differences between the new players and veterans which leads to them getting stomped as soon as they graduate from the instant battle academy, and this is a serious issue for Dust's retention of new players. The solution is not to go to a fully passive SP system like EVE because although it would end the SP grind, it will also create an insurmountable gap between the newbs and veterans. The solution is not just simply give players more SP from battles because the game would lead to players quickly unlocking everything like a CoD game, which would be bad for longevity. The solution is not to remove the SP system, because it adds depth to the game and character building. What is the solution? I found this thread in the feedback/requests section by Vyzion Eyri that suggests this: Items should no longer have skill requirements to use them.
Since skills would no longer unlock items, they should instead ALL provide bonuses for items to improve efficacy. No more useless skills.
All skills start out with a 2x multiplier, but the more SP you spend, the more SP cost multiplier increases. After spending 5 million SP the multipliers become 3x, and after 10 million it becomes 4x.
large cost increases from one tier to the next, making using prototype gear extremely expensive and risky to use in a public battles.
If you're going to say that this deviates too far from EVE, then you should know that Dust wasn't even suppose to have EVE's skill system. In 2009 the plan was to use an achievement matrix where in-game achievements gives you the ability to use items. Click here and read and here. Dust is largely about risk, each time you spawn in battle with a fitting, you're risking losing it. Skill requirements for items essentially prevents us from being able to risk an item, and only holds back the true risk vs rewards nature of the game; if someone wants to risk losing an insanely expensive dropsuit fitting or tank, then they should be allowed to without needless restrictions. Some of you (and CCP) may be thinking that the lack of skill requirements for items would make many no-requirements AUR items obsolete, and end up providing CCP with less money. A solution would be to sell standard BPOs instead for almost every single items. Also sell guns with all sorts of colors and skins. I'm posting this here because I believe this system is best for the game, and it will help with retention of new players. The grindfest aspect of the game is one of the flaws that led to so many bad reviews. This system does not eliminate progression; SP will still be very important to augment one's character and provide advantages, but it just won't be necessary for the use of items. This makes the SP grind very optional so players don't feel forced to grind just to get an item they want. This thread is not itself request, but a means of getting a request the attention i feel it deserves, and to have a discussion about; general discussion gets more attention. to be clear...you want to release a bpo for every item in the game allowing players to pay a small amount of money to never require to spend isk again for any fit in the game completely eliminating the idea of risk in the game. since that's never going to happen they would need to turn to PAY to win to get players to invest into the game CCP already has stanard BPOs for dropsuits, and its far less pay-to-win then the lowered skill requirement advanced and prototype gear. It would only be standards. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4178
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 12:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
calisk galern wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:calisk galern wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:We are mercenaries, yet acquiring skill points is vastly more important than acquiring money. SP is vital in this game because almost every item requires SP to use, and it accrues so slowly that it makes the game into a grindfest; this is why people AFK farm. The current SP system encourages us to play as a form of work when we should be playing because we enjoy the game, or because of the metagame. The SP system also creates massive gear differences between the new players and veterans which leads to them getting stomped as soon as they graduate from the instant battle academy, and this is a serious issue for Dust's retention of new players. The solution is not to go to a fully passive SP system like EVE because although it would end the SP grind, it will also create an insurmountable gap between the newbs and veterans. The solution is not just simply give players more SP from battles because the game would lead to players quickly unlocking everything like a CoD game, which would be bad for longevity. The solution is not to remove the SP system, because it adds depth to the game and character building. What is the solution? I found this thread in the feedback/requests section by Vyzion Eyri that suggests this: Items should no longer have skill requirements to use them.
Since skills would no longer unlock items, they should instead ALL provide bonuses for items to improve efficacy. No more useless skills.
All skills start out with a 2x multiplier, but the more SP you spend, the more SP cost multiplier increases. After spending 5 million SP the multipliers become 3x, and after 10 million it becomes 4x.
large cost increases from one tier to the next, making using prototype gear extremely expensive and risky to use in a public battles.
If you're going to say that this deviates too far from EVE, then you should know that Dust wasn't even suppose to have EVE's skill system. In 2009 the plan was to use an achievement matrix where in-game achievements gives you the ability to use items. Click here and read and here. Dust is largely about risk, each time you spawn in battle with a fitting, you're risking losing it. Skill requirements for items essentially prevents us from being able to risk an item, and only holds back the true risk vs rewards nature of the game; if someone wants to risk losing an insanely expensive dropsuit fitting or tank, then they should be allowed to without needless restrictions. Some of you (and CCP) may be thinking that the lack of skill requirements for items would make many no-requirements AUR items obsolete, and end up providing CCP with less money. A solution would be to sell standard BPOs instead for almost every single items. Also sell guns with all sorts of colors and skins. I'm posting this here because I believe this system is best for the game, and it will help with retention of new players. The grindfest aspect of the game is one of the flaws that led to so many bad reviews. This system does not eliminate progression; SP will still be very important to augment one's character and provide advantages, but it just won't be necessary for the use of items. This makes the SP grind very optional so players don't feel forced to grind just to get an item they want. This thread is not itself request, but a means of getting a request the attention i feel it deserves, and to have a discussion about; general discussion gets more attention. to be clear...you want to release a bpo for every item in the game allowing players to pay a small amount of money to never require to spend isk again for any fit in the game completely eliminating the idea of risk in the game. since that's never going to happen they would need to turn to PAY to win to get players to invest into the game CCP already has stanard BPOs for dropsuits, and its far less pay-to-win then the lowered skill requirement advanced and prototype gear. It would only be standards, so risk would exist in advanced and proto. It isn't exactly ideal, but CCP needs to make money somehow if the SP system is reformed in this manner. sorry i'm missing your point then. most players stop using the standard suits around the time they get access to advanced suits. is your whole plan for them to make a tiny bit of money off each players first month or two playing? Like I say in the OP, the ISK costs of items would multiply greatly from one tier to the next, in fact the original proposer if the idea wants to increase double the price of standard gear, and 10x that price for advanced, and 10x the price of advanced for proto. It would be more cost effective to supplement an expensive advanced suit with standard gear instead of advanced gear, it might actually be unwise at all to liberally use advanced gear. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4181
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 14:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:Remove skill requirements
lol everyone in proto at the start and all other items are left to rot and are never used
No bad idea and you should feel bad
Best and only way is full passive like EVE and you play because you want to and for ISK etc, as for the counter argument that noobs will always be behind in the majority of game they always are anyway I take it you have bad reading comprehension skills. Go reread the part about the ISK costs, and read it again for a 3rd time. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4181
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 14:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:Remove skill requirements
lol everyone in proto at the start and all other items are left to rot and are never used
No bad idea and you should feel bad
Best and only way is full passive like EVE and you play because you want to and for ISK etc, as for the counter argument that noobs will always be behind in the majority of game they always are anyway I take it you have bad reading comprehension skills. Go reread the part about the ISK costs, and read it again for a 3rd time. EDIT: There is a TL;DR version, may be useful for you. No i read it and i stand by it Bad idea go biomass yourself So you read the part about protogear being completely unprofitable in public battles, yet you stand by your statement that everyone would use it...
Dust is about "Don't use what you can't afford to lose", and protogear would be even more expensive, 200x the price of standard (the original poster of the idea wants to double the price of standard, 10x the price of standard for advanced, and 10x the price of advanced for proto).
If everyone wants to drive themselves into poverty, then I say let them. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4181
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 15:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:Remove skill requirements
lol everyone in proto at the start and all other items are left to rot and are never used
No bad idea and you should feel bad
Best and only way is full passive like EVE and you play because you want to and for ISK etc, as for the counter argument that noobs will always be behind in the majority of game they always are anyway I take it you have bad reading comprehension skills. Go reread the part about the ISK costs, and read it again for a 3rd time. EDIT: There is a TL;DR version, may be useful for you. No i read it and i stand by it Bad idea go biomass yourself So you read the part about protogear being completely unprofitable in public battles, yet you stand by your statement that everyone would use it... Dust is about "Don't use what you can't afford to lose", and protogear would be even more expensive, 200x the price of standard (the original poster of the idea wants to double the price of standard, 10x the price of standard for advanced, and 10x the price of advanced for proto). If everyone wants to drive themselves into poverty, then I say let them. Course they would still use it Espc vehicle users if we ever get proto vehicles rolling around like a god on the battlefield in a pub match, i can do this in a madrugar now give me another armor tank with 8low and 5 high and lets see what happens I still say let them. Poverty shall be their reward. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4181
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 16:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Any more hate? |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4247
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 19:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:CCP (and others) discovered that if players need to "invest" in their characters they tend to stick around for longer. Grinding SP is one form of investment, as is spending real cash (Aurum in this case). Removing the grind won't necessarily make players happier in the long run. Of course, they need to find the right balance: too much grind drives them away before they feel invested. This would not eliminate grind, getting SP would still require grind. Grinding would just become less important, right now its too necessary. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4247
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 20:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:So you want it more like COD? Last time I played CoD (MW2) there was character levels, and items were permanent unlocked and given for free. Progression was also super fast. None of that has anything to do with this, at all. What the hell is up with you people comparing every suggestion you don't like to CoD? How about formulating an actual argument next time. What I'm asking is for the ability to risk what I want to without restriction, for skills to become all about bonuses instead of unlocking items, and for prices to multiply greatly from one tier to the next to make proto something reserved for important battles like PC. This doesn't even translate into CoD. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4248
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 20:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:Because SP and the character grind is appealing to people. It is a reason I am playing this and not some "drop in and go" game. I like earning SP and unlocking gear, I like that PC is something you have to strive for, not having things handed to you. Earn it. Did you read the OP? You would still have to grind for SP, and the more SP you spent, the higher the SP cost multiplier becomes. SP grind would still be there, but the purpose of skills would be repurposed for bonuses instead of item unlocks. The massive increases in the price of ADV and PRO gear would create ISK grind as well.
Grind would still be present, just not for unlocking items. |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4248
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 21:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Jin Robot wrote:Because SP and the character grind is appealing to people. It is a reason I am playing this and not some "drop in and go" game. I like earning SP and unlocking gear, I like that PC is something you have to strive for, not having things handed to you. Earn it. Did you read the OP? You would still have to grind for SP, and the more SP you spent, the higher the SP cost multiplier becomes. SP grind would still be there, but the purpose of skills would be repurposed for bonuses instead of item unlocks. The massive increases in the price of ADV and PRO gear would create ISK grind as well. Grind would still be present, just not for unlocking items. I did. I like the SP unlocking items, it creates longer term specialization. I want to take months planning, rationing SP, and fine tuning my fits through SP allotment. Call me crazy. I want my corp to do that as well. I think that having that system (especially years from now with more equipment/vehicles/roles) will create a strategic element lacking in most games where you can instantly use all equipment and vehicles. I suppose we're at a fundamental disagreement that no amount of arguing will surmount. |
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